Comments on Mockingbird: Have We Run From The Economic Crisis Into The Arms...

Clifford, I couldn't agre with you more. Evangeli...

2009-06-26T11:06:36.885-04:00

Clifford,
I couldn't agre with you more. Evangelical has become a tricky word to use. I think it would fall into Wilder's category of "defaced and degraded", but I, too, hope that it can be rehabilitated.

What I meant to convey was "ditto" on your post. ...

2009-06-26T08:50:02.759-04:00

What I meant to convey was "ditto" on your post. I agree.

It's tricky to use the word evangelical (which my church does, but we are moving to do so only when we are able to control the defintion, for instance with an explanation of how the Gospel plays out in our common life). I don't want to give it up! But it is difficult (particularly in Manhattan) not to be misunderstood when using it.

Well said, Clifford.

2009-06-25T16:05:47.689-04:00

Well said, Clifford.

Yup. If.

2009-06-25T16:01:43.398-04:00

Yup. If.

Clifford, I saw that line, too, and at first took...

2009-06-25T09:00:31.290-04:00

Clifford,

I saw that line, too, and at first took hope in it, but what worried me about it is the definition of "evangelical", which has unfortunately been on shifting sand in the past decade (or more).

Thinking of forty ears ago, I think we could assert that "evangelical" would have referred to bible believing, gospel centered preaching (think Billy Graham), but lately that same classification has included the likes of Brian McLaren and Rob Bell, leaders of the neo-gnostic emergent church movement who are clearly NOT bible believing, and Rick Warren and the very pelagian "deeds not creeds--what would Jesus do" movement, who love the law but are light on gospel.

These have both been areas of tremendous growth in the last decade, and I think what has happened has simply increased the rate of decay in the modern church.

So, I question the assertion in the article that the evangelical movement has grown fifty percent. I think that perhaps that growth has been in areas that are clearly not "evangelical" per se.

One important qualification in the article: "...d...

2009-06-24T17:56:02.145-04:00

One important qualification in the article:

"...during each recession cycle between 1968 and 2004, membership of evangelical churches jumped by 50%. This report filled the newspapers and TV news-shows at the height of the depression panic just before Christmas; but the report’s findings focused on evangelicals, and do not apply to Americans at large."

The article was indicating that mainline churches did not experience a jump in attendance, while evangelical churches did.

If the study's label ("evangelical") to describe those churches means the Gospel is preached there, then there is some encouragement that in the midst of trials, people do seek this out. If.

Please don't tarry from the cross and please don't...

2009-06-23T14:46:40.719-04:00

Please don't tarry from the cross and please don't put anything in the way of the cross lest you distract from Christ crucified.
There is nothing new!
David

To tell you the truth, I have used Dr. Paulson's o...

2009-06-23T13:57:05.872-04:00

To tell you the truth, I have used Dr. Paulson's opening to his first talk several times now with different groups (and of course always given him credit), when he built up how he was going to give us the Gospel, and then says simply "In the name of Jesus Christ, your sins are forgiven".

You can't get any closer to the "old" concepts of our faith than that. That's the core, that's straight from the lips of Jesus in the Gospels. And yet, presenting it in the way in which Dr. Paulson did was about as new and fresh as anything could possibly be, because we haven't had it shared with us in that manner before, even though it is just that simple and ancient and central to our belief.

This to me epitomizes rediscovering our faith, as opposed to rethinking it. And I think that's what we really need to be (and Mockingbird is) doing.

And I too would insert the Mocking Bird plug right about here:______,

because that's exactly what you all have been doing from the beginning. That's what drew me in, and that's what draws others to this blog.

J- great post! Very interesting stuff. I can total...

2009-06-23T13:20:47.465-04:00

J- great post! Very interesting stuff. I can totally see how the "new and persuasive words" line could be abused. Ugh.

The challenge here, as you point out, is finding new language and imagery that captures/articulates the old story without changing it somehow. Which, as we all know, is much more difficult than it sounds! Yet despite the real dangers involved, I think we all agree that there is no more worthy task (ditto on the Mbird plug here...).

And I don't think there's anything wrong with working to reclaim the old words themselves at the same time.

The disturbing thing to me about New Perspective b...

2009-06-23T09:38:05.405-04:00

The disturbing thing to me about New Perspective boosters is that a lot of them consider themselves theological conservatives.

Remember that one of the biggest NPP writers nowadays is NT Wright.

If you are interested in reading a great article on the NPP, I can't recomend enough "The Attractions of the New Perspective(s) on Paul" by J. Ligon Duncan. It's easy to read and very thoughtful. Plus the guy includes a long quote by our own beloved PZ.

John, Thanks Buddy! Mike, I totally agree with yo...

2009-06-23T07:46:22.748-04:00

John, Thanks Buddy!

Mike, I totally agree with you. In fact, I think we are saying the same thing.

You see, I just got back from a very, VERY liberal conference at Kanuga, and I could just see these "anglimergent" and "new perspective" people taking TW's "new and persuasive words" line and twisting it to justify what they are doing to destroy the old, old story.

I would never presume to refute PZ, and all I was trying to do was clarify what Wilder said, that what we have to do is find new ways to return to the core concepts of our faith. Rather than new perspectives, we need to rediscover the real concepts and what they mean.

So, I think we're on the same wavelength, no?

Jeff, This is a great post and I think you're tot...

2009-06-22T22:38:08.914-04:00

Jeff,

This is a great post and I think you're totally correct about getting back to basics and delivering a message that is consistent with what "Jesus did and Paul taught" (my own hat-tip to the Very Rev. Dr. Zahl).

And, I don't want to speak for Dr. Zahl, but I think where he might be coming from on the "new, persuasive words" front has to do, not with the old, old story itself, but the way that it is being presented these days.

I think of terms such as "Gospel" and "Grace" and can't help but understand that the way they're offered these days is through the "prosperity" or "new perspective" definitions. They've done a great job of taking the truth and twisting it, sometimes ruining the old ways of speaking about Jesus' ministry and sacrifice.

This has left a new generation of sufferers without "ears to hear". So, to that end, i believe that there needs to be what Wilder called "new" words that can speak to the heart of the downtrodden and despairing.

But, either way, it IS the "same old song" that they need to hear. Who will sing it to them?

[Insert Mockingbird plug here]

AWESOME POST, Jeff. Thanks.

2009-06-22T17:41:33.128-04:00

AWESOME POST, Jeff. Thanks.